[>
[> >menti...@scn.org (SCN User) writes: >
[> >> In a previous article, sethr...@clickshop.com (Seth Russell) says:
[> >>
[> >> >First a note to eliminate confusion for any late commers.   This train
[> >> >was started to discuss different Knowledge Representation (KR) schemes
[> >> >and even the data structures in which they can be coded.  [...]
[> >
[> >How are non-linguistic concepts represented? For example, the general
[> >idea of a chess combination.
[>
[> I don’t really understand what is non-linguistic concepts. Your chess
[> combination can be represented (mentally) as a set of objects and thier
[> location relative to each other. Each object (Red King, White Pawn, Board)
[> is a concept by itself. The entire chess scence is represented as a set
[> of groups: if the Red King is just one squre above the white pawn you can
[> say that:
[>  (There is a Red King x)
[>  (There is a White Pawn y)
[>  (There is chessboard z)
[>  (The Red King is member of group X)
[>    (group X is the group of all chess pieces currently on the z)
[>  (The Red King is member of group Y)
[>    (group Y is all the items that can kill the White Pawn)
[>  etc.
[>
[> How is that non-linguistic? besides, why do you assume that non-linguistic
[> items (if there are any) are not represented the same way linguistic items
[> are represented? (I think it’s better to ask: why do you think that *linguistic*
[> items are represented differently from *non-linguistic* items?)
[>
[>
[> >
[> >Are ‘concepts’ involved in motor skills, such as playing a tune.
[>
[> That’s a good one. I think yes, I think that the concept of the note
[> A (whether it’s a prototype or a core concept) is important in order
[> to produce the tune of any song. It’s true that if we didn’t have the
[> concept of the note A we could still make noise, but not music.
[> (And I don’t mean that the ‘A’ note is the important item here, but
[> that we need a concept of a certain sound between such and such
[> frequentcy with such and such tone levels etc. to produce music.)
[>
[> >Are arithmetical processes, such as addition or mutiplication,
[> >non-linguistic?
[>
[> IMHO they are Non-Linguistic. I belive, and YMMV, that logics
[> are the basis for both Math and Lingu. but, like the apes and
[> the humans evloved from the same creature they took different
[> paths and altough similar they are inherently different. So that
[> alot of things in Math are similar to Lingu. but they are not,
[> IMHO, the same.
[>
[> Just my 0.02 NIS.
[> /NL
[> —
[> Nir Levy,                  The above opinions are my own,  

By linguistic I meant the specialised processing areas of the
human brain which process language. One can, of course, define
language very widely, so that a concept would have to be
linguistic in some sense.

It is conceivable that a person could lose the power of speech
but still be able to play chess, but I do not know if this is
a medical fact. The chess combination, it seems to me, is a
learned routine, like a phrase of music or a boxer’s counterpunch.
Such routines regarded as ‘programs’ could be viewed as being
associated with some unpecified language.

One might try the following definitions:

External Symbol: A state of system A representing a state of system B

Internal Symbol: A state of system A representing a state of system A

Concept: A state of system A corresponding to a symbol    

Language: A system of symbols representing objects and relations.

Some examples of such symbols would be:

animal tracks -> animals
cave drawings -> animals, men
photograph    -> two dimensional map of real objects
video         -> three dimensional map of real events
bee’s dance   -> flowering plants
PI            -> attributes of a circle

Concepts:
Seeing animal tracks and remembering animals
Seeing the bee’s dance and knowing where to find flowers

When a blue tit pecks the cap of a milk bottle or when
an insect selects a specific type of flower is it
using linguistic concepts?

In the final analysis, I think that language and meaning are just
regularities which arise in the transformations of chaos. Their
absolute status is no different fom any other random occurrence.
in the case of music, I believe we could learn to regard certain
sequences of sound as music with all the rest consigned to noise.
From this point of view, a thought or concept is a state of mind/brain
(system A) which corresponds to a state of the environment (system B).

>menti…@scn.org (SCN User) writes: >
>> In a previous article, sethr…@clickshop.com (Seth Russell) says:

>> >First a note to eliminate confusion for any late commers.   This train
>> >was started to discuss different Knowledge Representation (KR) schemes
>> >and even the data structures in which they can be coded.  [...]

>How are non-linguistic concepts represented? For example, the general
>idea of a chess combination.

I don’t really understand what is non-linguistic concepts. Your chess
combination can be represented (mentally) as a set of objects and thier
location relative to each other. Each object (Red King, White Pawn, Board)
is a concept by itself. The entire chess scence is represented as a set
of groups: if the Red King is just one squre above the white pawn you can
say that:
 (There is a Red King x)
 (There is a White Pawn y)
 (There is chessboard z)
 (The Red King is member of group X)
   (group X is the group of all chess pieces currently on the z)
 (The Red King is member of group Y)
   (group Y is all the items that can kill the White Pawn)
 etc.

How is that non-linguistic? besides, why do you assume that non-linguistic
items (if there are any) are not represented the same way linguistic items
are represented? (I think it’s better to ask: why do you think that *linguistic*
items are represented differently from *non-linguistic* items?)

>Are ‘concepts’ involved in motor skills, such as playing a tune.

That’s a good one. I think yes, I think that the concept of the note
A (whether it’s a prototype or a core concept) is important in order
to produce the tune of any song. It’s true that if we didn’t have the
concept of the note A we could still make noise, but not music.
(And I don’t mean that the ‘A’ note is the important item here, but
that we need a concept of a certain sound between such and such
frequentcy with such and such tone levels etc. to produce music.)

>Are arithmetical processes, such as addition or mutiplication,
>non-linguistic?

IMHO they are Non-Linguistic. I belive, and YMMV, that logics
are the basis for both Math and Lingu. but, like the apes and
the humans evloved from the same creature they took different
paths and altough similar they are inherently different. So that
alot of things in Math are similar to Lingu. but they are not,
IMHO, the same.

Just my 0.02 NIS.
/NL
—
Nir Levy,                  The above opinions are my own,  
nlevy @ usa.net            not my employer’s.          
                         –
         I didn’t do it; Nobody saw me do it;
       You can’t prove anything;  -Bart Simpson
                         –

> >First a note to eliminate confusion for any late commers.   This train
> >was started to discuss different Knowledge Representation (KR) schemes
> >and even the data structures in which they can be coded.  [...]

How are non-linguistic concepts represented? For example, the general
idea of a chess combination.

Are ‘concepts’ involved in motor skills, such as playing a tune.
Are arithmetical processes, such as addition or mutiplication,
non-linguistic?